Eyes on whiteness with Sonya Renee Taylor

ANDDDDDD, WE'RE BACK!  
We're so grateful to kick off part 2 of season 2 with the brilliant and hilarious Sonya Renee Taylor!  We have an incredible conversation tracking where in the world is Sonya, how opening up to just listening and being has created space for her ancestors to offer quite an addition to her journey and a deep dig into her take on Intersectional Integrity.  We'll leave you with this gem as a teaser: 

"This is not just about how, how I relate to myself and how I relate to people who have targeted identities, right? It's not just that, it's how do I relate to life...to the being-ness of all beings? " 

Transcript

Sonya Renee Taylor is a world renowned activist, award-winning artist, transformational thought leader, author of six books, including The New York Times Bestselling the Body is Not an Apology and founder of the International Movement and Digital Media and Education Company of the same name, whose work has reached millions of people by exploring the intersections of identity, healing, and social justice, using a radical self-love framework.

She continues to speak, teach , write, create, and transform lives globally. Welcome, Sonya, Renee Taylor.

Sonie, I'm so excited to welcome you back. 

I'm, I'm elated to be back. Thanks for inviting me back. I'm always excited when I get a second invite to a podcast cuz it just means like I didn't fuck up the first time. So thanks for having me back. . 

Uh, thanks 

for not fucking up, aka 

shining your brilliant ass wisdom on the world.

Yeah, thank you. I mean, you know, I'm always wondering playing the where in the world is Sonya games. Yeah. So I'm glad that wherever you are, you, uh, thank you for making the time to be us happily. 

I am talking to you all from Mikonos, Greece, um, where I've been planted for two and a half weeks. Uh, yeah. And um, and I think I've been in Greece now for a month.

Uh, I think this week I made a month in Greece. Wow. Mm-hmm.  and yeah. And perhaps I'm going to Nairobi or someplace else soon, perhaps. Maybe . 

Who knows? Who knows? Oh, 

well, bless you. Bless you for listening to the guides that are guiding you on this incredible journey. , 

I tell you, it's a practice every single day.

every day, I'm like, I'm about to book a ticket. Like I'm about to make the next plan and I just get told. So this is how this works for me though, right? Like, so today I was going to, so I booked your, uh, Airbnb in Nairobi for October 1st. Because I felt like I had gotten permission to do that much, but I was not told to buy a ticket.

So I said, Okay, I guess somebody else is buying this ticket cuz I've not been told. And then I was like, All right, well let me get my visa together cuz I need to have the visa together in order to do the thing. I went to try to do the visa today and broke out in hives. Now pretty much anytime I break out in hives, it means stop doing the thing you're doing.

So I was like, Oh, okay. I guess we're not getting a visa to Nairobi, so I don't know how I'm getting an Nairobi on October 1st, which is three days away, but we'll leave it to the ancestors to let me know. Yeah, yeah. 

You're making me think, I was thinking this morning how every day lately for me is I find I'm trans. Like I love that you're, to me it's, you're transmuting how to move in the world from what the ways that we're indoctrinated into 

Yes. 

Planning or moving and, and, and I was thinking about how I 

am transmuting every day, all day. Hm mm-hmm.  like every day, all day. It's an all day long thing with the world that we're in now.

But I appreciate the lens that you're giving about.

I don't know the word. I just like the vibe you're giving off right now, Sonya. Thank you. Thank you. 

Absolutely. But I think you're so right about this, like every day is a day as a practice in transmuting. If you're, if your desire is to live outside of the conditioning of the status quo mm-hmm. , then it's a daily practice of transmuting.

Like what was I taught? What was I conditioned to do? And now, and what is actually in alignment with who it is that I desire to be in the world? Mm-hmm. . And at constant incremental shift, like, Oh, I was going in this array. Nope, it's time to turn. Oh, I was going in this way. Hope it's time to turn. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . 

And I think it's really beautiful. I mean, I hope so. Are you, is while you're on these travels, is that something that you, um, Share with like, like I'm not on Instagram, so like if I were, I would definitely follow you, but just fyi, it's not personal. I just, I really don't follow anyone.  and I barely listen to our own podcast, so it's not personal, but  .

But like, do you 

share with your audience, like when you're, are you in a place right now where you're sharing your travels 

and how you're moving 

so, I have, um, there's this great app called Polar Steps that captures like you can upload video, you can upload photos, you can, and it tracks where you are in your journey.

So it's logging each location that I go to, and then I upload all of the, you know, pieces and parts to it. And so I've given that link out to my Patreon community. 

Beautiful. 

And I've given that link out to friends and family, and that's the way in which I've been sort of tracking and letting other people participate in the experience.

And then every once and again, I'll still send a Marco Polo from wherever I am and say, Hey, or I'm doing this. But, um, but the, the, this app has been really helpful cuz it allows it to kind of be a one stop shop mm-hmm.  where I can say, here's all the things that happened in this location. Here's all the things that happened in this one.

So, yeah. 

That's really beautiful. I appreciate that. Cuz there, you know, I was having a conversation the other day, uh, with a bunch of black folks in tech and one of the, uh, folks who showed up is a black American. Uh, Panamanian. So one parent is from Panama, one parent from the States, but he is working out of Panama.

And we were having this really beautiful conversation about how differently it is for black folks to be able to give him the space in the room to process and explore this idea of transmuting when not in the United States. Yes. Also mentioning that anti-blackness 

is global, but yes, , but there's a different, 

there's a release and it just, I feel like that vibe from you, like there's a, a difference in being in black skin, 

not in America.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I mean it was part of the reason I left America as a place of residence is because there was such a different experience. Wow. Yes. Anti-blackness is global and the experience of, um, the particular texture, shade, flavor of anti-black violence in the US is so acute. It's so severe.

Um, you know, I really remember when I was talking to somebody in New Zealand one time and I was like, I just was like, I, I just want diet racism. Like if I'm gonna like, just gimme like racism, like, like less calories, you know? And in some ways that is was my experience in New Zealand. And, and as you know, I've been really, really blessed, knock on all the wood to have, um, had, you know, really lovely experiences as I've traveled to people who've been, um, very generous and kind to me.

And I've not experienced, um, uh, any particular specific violences that are standing out in my brain right now. Um, and so I'm really grateful for that. But I think that like, I was like, I, my nervous system needs. An experience that is less intense than the kind of anti-black violence that is constant, that is so pervasive inside of the United States.

And that's just like on top of just violence in general that is so pervasive in the United States. So it's like you just never get a chance to rest. It makes your entire being just constantly on high alert, constant hypervigilance. Um, and that has a, you know, like that has an epigenetic effect  on us.

Right. And, uh, I was like, it's an ancestral, it's cellular. You know, it's, it's when I'm sitting in my doctor's office getting my blood pressure checked, it's constant. It's never, never stops. It never stop. It never, It's, it is so ceaseless, 

you know, 

thank you so much for choosing to share your journey. Like that's what I was gonna say before.

Forgot. But in the moment, like the fact that you were sharing it, like you're on, when you, the app that you're using and you have mm-hmm. , like, thank you for sharing that because there's, there's many of us who, who don't have the, um, ability to travel outside, but seeing, you know, Representation matters. So like being able to see you out there in the world and like this brother who was in Panama and he was like really connecting with some younger brothers who were in the conversation and helping them see as possible you can go places.

You know, it's just really important and that, I think that's also a form of transmuting, you know? 

Absolutely. Yeah. And I, it felt, you know, at first I felt uncertain about sharing it because I was just like, you know, it's the middle of a pandemic and people are very much still dying and I'm traipsing about the planet and I recognize, you know, that, you know, I, so I one, recognize the, like tremendous amount of privilege that I have to be able to do this at this time.

I also recognize the ways in which it bumps up against a lot of the social reality that we're living in right now. And I also gotta do what my guides told me to do. And so I'm doing what my guides told me to do. Um, and so I was a little bit hesitant, but the response has been, Has been exactly what you shared of people being like, I needed to see this and I needed to see you in this experience.

It has given me something for my own journey. You know, like, Oh, you know, like there, Yeah, and I know this conceptually, right? Like I know this. In all other ways. I'm like, right, it's all contagious, right? Like of course joy and presence and embodiment is contagious the same way. Sadness and misery and depression.

All those other things are contagious. And so it was interesting to still notice that like, even though I understand that concept, I was still like, maybe I shouldn't share this life changing experience that I'm having. Um, and I appreciated having reflected back to me, No, this is needed in the world. You know? And 

well, that's the transmuting 

daily all day, every day. Exactly. It's not just other people. 

Me, it's what I have to do to watch doing to myself. 

Right, Exactly. What are the, what's my, you know, what are the things the, the, um, self-imposed shackles. That I've been conditioned to put on myself. Right. That I've been conditioned to be like, Nope, don't do that.

Nope. Don't share that. You know, like all of that kind of censoring of our joy, of our power of, Exactly. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's been, I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful that, that I get to be reminded that one, none of this is just for me, and I actually know that about my whole life. Right. Like, it's like whatever it is, it's for the collective.

I'm supposed to learn through it and then I'm supposed to share through it. And so, um, yeah. It was good to be reminded of that. 

We were just talking yesterday about the, uh, for some, not everyone, but for, for some, the unexpected gift that can come when people share the gift of their most authentic selves mm-hmm.

and that, um, one of the things I've been present to listening to you today, but also over the course of your journey is, The way in which you're giving yourself space to check in, to have a daily practice of listening to your guides, of giving yourself space to heal, to breathe. Like there's a really beautiful way that I think you're transmuting, uh, not only white supremacy and patriarchy, but also how capitalism has brought us to simply just go, go, go, go, go all the time.

And that is a way in which it prohibits us from transmuting. And so I'm really appreciating like way, like it's been super inspiring to just be in. Community around you to like, you know, which can feel audacious. It's like, oh, how do I have the audacity to like treat, Treat myself 

to what rest? 

Right. To write rest.

Like you have to earn it. Like you have to be right. Like that, that indoctrination that we have to be worthy of it. We have to earn it. We have to. It's been really interesting in this particular part of my journey here in Mikonos staying with this family. I didn't know them from a can of paint, Adam Eve, I don't know these people.

they are a connection of a friend in New Zealand whose uncle had a cousin in Athens and the cousin in Athens was like, Oh, I have a friend in Mikonos. 

Wow. 

That's how I got here. That's how I got here. I've been in these people house for two and a half weeks. . I was posted up sleeping in the mama's bed. She won't let, she's on the couch.

She won't let me, you know, sleep on the couch. She's giving me her bed in her bedroom. 

Wow. 

And the part of me that is, The part of me that is indoctrinated that you should not accept this. This is unacceptable, Sonya. Like you are a burden on these people. Right? Like the story. 

Yes. 

That, that, you know, even when people are freely and lovingly offering you care, the story that we are undeserving of it is so loud.

It was so loud. I have had. Work with myself , to be like, you are receiving because you are enough and because you don't have to do anything to earn care in the world. It is simply available to you. What if that's true? And it's been wild to practice it. And that piece of transmuting that story, that our care, that our resource, that our abundance is a thing, our rest is a thing that we have to earn through the exploitation of our labor constantly.

Mm-hmm. . 

And until we've done that enough, I mean, we literally structure sick days that way. Right? You have to work for me this amount of time, for this many hours before you are allowed to go and do something for yourself. Right. It's a, it's so deeply ingrained. And so that's been a daily practice of transmutation for me.

Mm-hmm. . 

It's like care is available to you. You didn't have to earn it. You don't have to do anything to you. It is your birthright. Can you simply accept it? 

You know, you know, it's interesting, Sonya, last time we spoke during the first season of our podcast, there is a, like, when I, I think I go back to that spot and I think about like, my understanding of transmuting white supremacy and patriarchy.

What, even though like Maureen and I were clear that it's something that starts with the individual, that it starts in the "I" that this, there was, there was still a part of me that was, 

um, 

still though I, I didn't know it then, but I see it now. That was still seeing it in terms of an internal process to change an, the external world.

Mm-hmm.  

and something has shifted, like since that was pre pandemic. That was a while ago. Right? Pre pandemic. Mm-hmm. . And the place that I'm in now with this work, like, you know, years later, there's something about, I'm feeling more drawn to what it means for black folks, particular nonconforming. Black Americans, uh, what does it mean to transmute white supremacy and patriarchy for us?

By us, with us? And what I'm learning is it's a lot what, like, it's at the core of that is some deep worthiness work. Absolutely. You know, deep worthiness to, to, to take. Cuz it is that idea of like, yeah, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You're not born worthy. You gotta prove that you are yada, yada yada.

Absolutely. Absolutely. 

And so much of that, you know, the, the thing that that struck me when you were just talking or you were like, you know, this idea of external change to change the external, and the only word I tweak in that all the time is like, it's not to, it, it does , right? It's that it does. Right.

But that's not why I'm doing it. Right. It's like, and I think about that all the time. I'm always using this analogy of the sun cuz I just think it's such a great example of like, The, you know, the sun doesn't shine for us. We just happen to get lucky  enough to get to bask and it's raised cuz it's gonna shine

Right. And it's like, oh, if I'm worthy, if, if we all embody that, it has an inevitable outcome. Right. But as long as I am doing it to get to the outcome, I'm not really doing it right. It's a trick. It's the, it's the, like I'm still making my worthiness conditional to something that will ultimately come if I manage it, as opposed to it just is.

And it just so happens that, because it just is. There are some great things that will grow from it, including a transformed world that is just compassionate and equitable. It just so happens , but that's not why. Right. But that's not why I'm doing it because I deserve, cuz I was born into a deservingness that doesn't require me to have to barter my worthiness in exchange for anything.

Mm-hmm.  

in exchange for anything. 

Mm-hmm. 

that it just is, you know, Um, yeah. That's really been the, the constant practice. 

That's tough. 

That's tough like that, right? That, you know, I, I, I say this with grace and compassion, like deep, deep grace and compassion. It, the more I sit in this work, the more I see like that switch.

There's many of us who use the words but don't realize like that the belief is not actually there. Right. The words are there, but the belief is not actually there. What I like about being actively able to really take the time and the spaciousness that Maureen was just talking about mm-hmm.  to transmute this, that narrative that you were talking about.

Mm-hmm. , um, Sonya, like that narrative that's telling me I shouldn't be, not only should I not be in this woman's, you know, I shouldn't say this woman's bed, that sounds weird. Um, 

you know, not only should I be on the couch 

that sounds so much sexier than 

(laughter) ?

you know I shouldn't be on the couch or even like, I shouldn't even be here. Like, you get the couch shouldn't be here, but the work that it takes, like that's what I'm thinking about now is like what, you know, what are the offerings to give folks to just even get there? Because so many, so many folks that I'm working with, are not even yet at that place to be able to own that.

It's not an actual belief, 

right? I mean, that part is, it's, you know, I, I would've said that, you know, three weeks ago, I would not have been able to own that. That was an actual belief, right? Mm-hmm. , I've been doing radical self love work for over a decade. It's, you know, it's like been like, No, you inherently enough, you're inherently doing, you know, like, I've been working this, and like all things, right?

It's an onion. It's you peel back one layer and then you get closer and you get closer. But there are so many layers, right? And these layers are not, again, just our own individual experience. They're social, they're our collective social experience. They are our epigenetic, ancestral experience. I am. I am undoing the stories of unworthiness that come from hundreds of years before me.

Right. 

Can you say that again? Say that again. 

I am undoing the stories of unworthiness that come from centuries before me. Right. It's, it is, it is deep, deep lineage work. And so of course there are gonna be parts of it that I could, I wasn't gonna be able to see that until I was in the circumstance, , that brought it to the surface such that it had to be contended with, right?

Mm-hmm. . And I believe that what life is constantly doing for us, if we're open to it, is it's constantly being. I will, Life will create the circumstances for you to address the thing you're ready to address when you're ready to address. Yes. Or you can, you know, it will present it to you and you get to say, Nope, I wanna do with that now and then.

Cool. You get to do whatever you was doing again until you are ready to do the next thing. And I also think that, like, you know, life in this sort of big, esoteric way, but I also think there is a part of us, the, the part of me that does understand that I am inherently worthy. 

Mm-hmm.  

will continue to lead me to situations such that I have to practice that truth.

I will continue to direct my own soul towards circumstances. It's like I didn't, like I said, I dunno how I ended up in Mikonos. I thought I was gonna be here three days. Right? Mm-hmm. , and then all manner of fascinating, you know, synchronicities began to occur that were like, No, you actually have to stay here because there's something that wants to be unveiled in you that wants to be healed.

And it is only through sitting here in these people's home who you relate to as strangers, which is the first lie. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , right? That it's only through sitting here inside of the story that it can rise to the top, such that you can transmute it. Right. Yeah. But you got, and, and my soul led me here.

It was like, Oh, you, you got some work to do in Mikonos and you don't even know you got work to do in Mikonos, but we finna put all the things in place to wind up in Mikonos that you can do that work.  

beautiful. 

Mm-hmm. . 

And I think that the, what, what I love about you saying that the soul led you here, coupled with that, you are giving yourself space and practice to listen and do that work.

Because I would actually argue all of our souls are leading us in all kinds of places all the time. Very few of us,  create the capacity, right? I don't wanna even say have the capacity. I believe that we infinitely have the capacity and we struggle to engage in the belief work to even understand that we have choice and agency to understand that we're even defaulting to a shit ton of stories that tell us all of these things.

So what does it look like to even begin with. Wait, I have choice and agency. Wait, there's a list. There's a litany of stories that have been told about me that are pre-made up and rooted in white supremacy and patriarchy in so many forms of oppression. And just, it always brings me back to what does it look like to, just, as you always say, Diedra, slow down, breathe, seek clarity in this moment and see what's unveiled.

And like, Let that be a regular practice to then open up the space to where's your soul taking you to go. 

Totally. 

You don't have to do with this other shit that society's telling you to do. You actually don't have to. 

Right. And if it, it feels like you have 

to, there's a lack of integrity there, right?

There's a 

lack of, 

Can we get into that question? Right. Can we get into the what is, and you know, one of the things, I think part of the reason we struggle with that is because it, you know, people who live, who have been, who have experienced marginalization over their lifetimes, right? The, the idea that.

There is self-efficacy and autonomy, Right? Can raise the hackles of, So you're telling me I'm imagining this shit, right? Like that's what comes up. Or it my fault, so you're telling me, right, it's my fault, I just didn't do the right thing. Right? And so raises up these hackles and then we get into that defensiveness.

And what I'm always trying to practice for myself into sharing with other folks is like, I am never proposing that those systems of inequity and oppression and marginalization are not real. They are real, they 

and loud. 

They do things and they're loud. And I refu, I said if, if white supremacist delusion plans to tell me that I ain't shit and that I can't ever have anything and that I'm only gonna struggle if that's what it plans to tell me, I have no intentions on assisting it aiding and abetting it by believing.

I have no intentions. And so it's gonna have to prove it. It's gonna have to prove it to me over all the things that I'm gonna do that says you're a liar. And that's the energy that allows us to be like, that's real. And I will not feed it. 

Mm-hmm. , 

I will not feed it. And that doesn't mean it's not gonna try to come for me, but you're not gonna come for me with my health.

I'm not gonna leave a key in the door so you can break in and rob me. Yeah, Right. I'm not, I'm in Oakland. I'm not gonna leave a bag on the seat so you can break in and take the bag. Right. Like, No, 

I love that. And it makes like, I think sometimes when people hear, you know, me talk, like I only speak from my experience, Hear me talking about this idea of transmuting, white supremacy and patriarchy, that

it's this. 

That is, it is this thing that just happens, right? , it's like this, right? This thing that just 

happened, like speaking about, we said that we're looking for this outcome, right? But it's this thing that just happens. And I think what I struggle with is trying to stay in the eye of like, okay, just do this for Diedra.

And those who come to it are supposed to come to it and they'll come to it. But also trying to get people to understand of like what the offering is, are tools, like actual tools to help 

One hear your, 

hear your inner person or your guide or your North star, um, tell you that you don't have to be 

complicit in aiding and embedding white supremacy or patriarchy stealing  your life, but, and that it's so indoctrinated.

It is so systemic, it is so institutionalized that there does need to, that there are things that can help folks see it and move through it. And what, you know, Maureen and I call it transmuting, but there's this like, there's this push and pull, you know, between the  telling people, like, you know, it's like, I always think of like, this is like super white male movie, but um, uh, fields of dreams, you know, like if I feel like my ancestors were like, If you build it, they will come.

And like, you know, in the transmuting thing was like, Okay, if you build it, they will come. And so I'm constantly transmuting of like, Well, come on. ancestors, where the fuck are they ? 

Like   (laughter) 

you said they will come. Yeah. . 

But 

really, you know, it's a pro. Like what you're saying is beautifully. I love the analogy. And like you said, like you've been on a self love journey for decades is think is what you said.

Mm-hmm.  decades.

Um, and so it is a pro, it is a process. It is a process. 

And I think the key thing you said in that too is part of what I, part of what the reminder is, is like you're not gonna think your way out of this. , that's not actually what the, you're gonna do your way out of this. It's a practice, , it's a practice.

There are things that you have to do. I was having a conversation with my friend the other day and you know, she was sort of stuck in some energy and, you know, she's like, and I just feel like, and I think, and I said, I said, You're doing a lot of thinking and that's not where answer. Like, and you actually know that's not where your answers lie.

Your answers lie when you start to do, when you start to practice, when you start to employ some tools. So yes, if, if the system of white supremacy and patriarchy feels like this, you know, looming ever present, you know, suffocating entity in your life, you are not gonna think your way out of that experience.

Mm-hmm. .

You can practice your way out of that experience. So, which is what I love about what you all have created. It is cuz it is, here's how we can practice such that we stop relating to that as the only possible reality. Mm-hmm. , it is a reality, but it is not the only possible reality. And here are some tools that expand our vision such that we might start to see some other doors.

Right, Right. Or 

like, you know, there's so much out there. There is a lot. It's, there's like, even the 

body is not an apology. Like your first 

hello, 

hello. Like, you know, here is something that will, it offers you a way to be right. To be in the being, to be in the, like a harmony 

of the doing and the being.

Right? 

Mm-hmm. . Yes.

Um, and like the tools are there. I think, you know, it is, it is an interesting conundrum just to hold both. That's also where I love, I, I come back to this idea of grace and compassion because 

Absolutely.

There's so much when you're, when you have multiple identities that are targeted by.

You know, systems of oppression, whether that's capitalism, anti-blackness, white supremacy, patriarchy xenophobia, Islamophobia, all these things. It can be tough. It can be tough to even. Grab onto those, you know? 

Absolutely. 

And sometimes I'm just life preservers and you can't really do any, which I, I have respect for and compassion for.

I can't really even do anything. But I know that when I look up, I see Sonya's book. I see the book. 

I can't quite read it right now, but I see.

But I know it's there. I see. Absolutely. But that too is work, right? Because there is sales thing happening on a 

Yeah. 

You are saying there is another possibility and I've opened my eyes to it.

I might not be ready to take the first step, but that's different than there are no other possibilities. My eyes are closed. 

Yeah. 

Right? 

Mm-hmm. . 

And so even that, and I, this is, I try to get folks to, um, to be willing to, to break down to the, you know, micro experience. What is the tiniest step that you can take towards transmuting those systems today?

What's the tiniest thing you can do? Maybe it is just being like, today I'm actually gonna just take the book off the shelf. Yeah. I ain't gonna even open it. I'm gonna just take the book off the shelf. Then give yourself mad props for having decided to take the book off the shelf. That was a step, Right? And then from there, what's the next incremental micro, you know, ask, you know, I'm, uh, co-teaching a course right now called The Institute of Radical Permission with adrienne maree brown

and, you know, constantly what we're talking about is like, what is the smallest, incremental change of Yes. That you can offer yourself today? Mm-hmm. , Right? What is that? Cause that is getting you closer. Every little bit of that is getting you closer. 

Yeah. 

And that's enough. Right? 

And that's enough. 

And especially if I'm in the "I" work, right?

Like, I think there's a, for me, there's a tension of people looking to, when I'm like looking to do some work for the external change, and like incremental is enough. That irritates me. Right? Right. Because it's one, it's a lack of integrity of like, I'm not actually doing the "I" work. And because I was, I'm like, and like incremental change in systems isn't enough.

We actually need a radical transformation in order to right, like deeply interrupt the harm that's happening. And with grace and compassion for my own self, yes. Increment is enough, especially if it's a daily practice. Right? 

Exactly.

Like, yes, hello, today, here's my step forward and guess what? Hundred steps forward in a couple of months and hundreds and hundreds over years.

Like really today it's enough. Yeah. Just start in the "I". So I appreciate that. Mm-hmm.

I am. So, um, one, I'm grateful for this conversation, and two, I feel like one thing I've learned with the prompts that we've offered for this season around intersectional integrity is I. Have constantly caught myself in assumptions. So I just wanna name, I feel like I've heard so many rich nuggets and threads about what has come up for you with this, this question around, you know, talk about what intersectional integrity is for you.

And I'm not gonna assume that

(laughter), I've already shifting my thinking about it just in this conversation. I'm just wondering if you can share, um, either build on anything that you had discussed already that touched on it, or are there other things and or right. Other things that are coming up, but like what comes up for you when you think about the concept of intersectional integrity?

Yeah, I mean I was really, um, appreciative when I looked at the definition that you all sent me cuz it felt so expansive and that feels like the energy I am trying to move in. It's the energy I'm being directed to move into whether I want to or not. You know, I, I share all the time. Like I just, you know, I be, I, I went vegan back in March and it wasn't cuz I wanted to be vegan.

It wasn't like, I was like, you know what? I really care about the lambs not being chopped . And so it was not my relationship. I really loved the lambs being chops on my plate and, and the, you know, and the directive was both a directive that was about my physical wellbeing. That was one piece of it. But one of the early downloads that I got right after I did it was, uh, in my morning practice.

Um, It was said to me, I was told, I heard, I don't know how to describe , how the information pops up, but it was said to me, um, eating animals was our first act of domination. I was like, Oh, But yeah, , like, it just made instant sense. I was like, Yeah, It was, it was the first time we said we're, we are more, our life is more important than your life, right?

Mm. Um, and. The, you know, and I'm a person who very much is of the mindset that I believe that it is possible to be, I believe that it is possible to be in right relationship with all beings. Right. Yeah. And I, and I, and, and I don't think that being in right relationship with all beings doesn't mean that there, that there's no death

Right. Like, that doesn't, the no part of the Scorpio in me aligns with that. Right.  death is part of it too. The circle of life. The Lion King told us . Um, but also there is no way to be inside of right relationship inside of that circle of life, under the constraints and constructions of oppression as they exist right now.

Mm-hmm. , 

there's no way to do. In the ways in the system that we are living in, right? Mm-hmm. . And so as soon as that got clear to me it was like, Right, This is not just about how, how I relate to myself and you know, how I relate to people who have targeted identities, right? And how I, it's not just that, like, it's how do I relate to life?

How do I relate to life, to the beingness of all beings 

mm-hmm. . 

And what is my relationship and my responsibility to an, to an integrity, right? That extends beyond just me into the larger world. One of the, um, uh, uh, I did a podcast, um, with Prentice Hemp hill Prentice's, um, Finding Our Way podcast, and I was mentioning a conversation that you and I had Maureen, where I was like, I've never known myself to be this disciplined.

And you said, Is it discipline or is it integrity? 

Mm-hmm. . 

And I was like, That's a word.  That's a

whole sermon. Its integrity to how it is that I am moving through the world. That one first honors my wholeness, my inherent enoughness, and from there demands that I operate with all of the rest of life. 

Mm-hmm.  

the same way. 

That's right. 

That is the intersectional integrity for me. Right. It's like all of life gets to exist inside of enoughness and inherent divinity.

And if that is true, then how do you treat all of life? Right. Right. Not just the parts that are convenient. And I'm a convenience girl, . I like . I like just doing the thing that is convenient and I spent many, many years just doing the thing that was convenient and it kept being reflected back to me that.

That I wasn't in integrity, right? 

Mm-hmm.  

that doing the thing that was the most convenient wasn't leading me to integrity. Yeah. That integrity was, do I honor everything the way that I've been practicing to honor myself. 

Mm-hmm. 

Right? 

Mm-hmm. , 

I'm so curious then, what's the difference in your experience of attempting to be disciplined and attempting to be in integrity?

Oh, goodness. Oh, dis disciplined. I mean, just, I'm not a disciplined person. Not in that way. Like that's just not, you know, like the thing that's just because I experience discipline as an external thing. 

That's right.

I am right. I do this thing to get this result, right. I go to the gym five days a week so that I'm ripped, Right?

Like, that's , that's a, it's a core, you know, there's a correlation between what I'm doing and the outcome that I expect, and. Integrity is, I do not know the outcome. 

Mm. 

And I am called to be in relationship in a way that honors me my truth. Yeah. My most authentic self that honors my soul. And if I am honoring my soul, I don't need to know the outcome.

I know that it changes how I move. Right. And so, you know, like I said, I'm not a, I've never experienced myself as a disciplined person. I'm a notorious procrastinator. I'm chronically late. I'm just like, it's not my, it's not my thing. Um, but those things have like where those. You know, character flaws where a manifestation of me not being in integrity 

mm-hmm.

they have shifted. 

Yeah. 

Right. They have shifted. I'm more on time in my life than I've ever been in my entire existence, . And now it's because the integrity says everybody's time is as valuable as yours Sonya, you 

mm-hmm. , 

right? 

Mm-hmm.  

discipline would be, you know, I'm on time because that makes people respect me.

And it says, you know, like, that's something different. 

Yeah. 

Um, but, you know, I, I honor what it is I said I was gonna do because that's a reflection of how it is that I desire to treat myself and how it is I desire to be with others. You know, 

I'm glad you touched on the desire to treat yourself, cuz I think that the, again, starting in the "I" is so key and I love that distinction of, you know, the discipline is about an expected outcome and the integrity, particularly intersectional integrity, like honoring your own work to be enough.

Yes. 

Right. To that manifestation of the undoing of the, the, the centuries. Right. As you said earlier of these messages, like that is really resonating with me and I appreciate, I just really appreciate that you're constantly coming back to that because it can be a slippery slope of like, well I'm gonna honor other people's time, but at the end of the day it's about how am I in alignment with who I wanna be in the world?

Right, 

Exactly. 

And like, what does that look like to be, um, Healed and to be enough. And so what would the actions, And the other thing I think that that struck me as, as I was listening too, was it also is just about in the moment, right? If it's not about the expected outcome, it's like in 

this moment right now, if I'm in integrity with myself and the healed being that I am attempting to be in the world, what choice do I make?

Exactly. 

It's about being 

Exactly. Yeah. 

Exactly. I had this , this was, uh, back in April when I was, you know, I was a month and a half into veganism and I had, um, agreed to have my family's Easter dinner catered. And so it was, you know, the blackest, blackest Easter dinner. We had the candied yams, the mac and cheese, the barbecue chicken, fried chicken, baked chicken, all the things, right?

Just had everything. And I went to go pick up the food and I, you know, put in anything. And I was having a day, right? I was already having a day. And you know, she put this steaming tin pan of fried chicken in back of this car and I was like, I'm gonna eat a piece of fried chicken . So I took out a chicken wing and I, you know, and I ate it Now disciplined.

If I were disciplined, I would've never eaten a chicken. Right. I ate the chicken and I did not feel sick or anything, but literally within five minutes, something in me just said we didn't honor ourselves. 

Mm-hmm. , 

like, the issue wasn't that I ate, the issue was I made an agreement with me and then I didn't honor the agreement that I had with.

And it was like, Oh, integrity with who I said I want to be with myself. That's, I'm not honoring the commitment I made to me, not to anybody else. Nobody would've ever even known I ate the chicken at and not said . You know, like it would've been, But it was such a clear indication of like, Oh, there is something calling me to be in right relationship with myself.

That's like, if we don't honor any other, we can't truthfully and authentically honor any other commitment if we don't honor the commitment with ourselves first. Woo. Save everything else. You cannot honor any other commitment, authentically and honestly, if you are not honoring the commitment with yourself first, it is unstable, unsustainable ground.

Mm-hmm. , 

you can't build from that. You. And so it was like, Oh yeah, I don't wanna eat anymore chicken. 

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna be authentic right in the moment. I agree with everything you're saying. Then there's a piece of me that's like, Shut up. Sonya 

I know, I'm sorry.

Stop Reading me! ,

I tell people just that like, this is the bad time to talk to me if, cause whatever I'm saying, I'm clear that I'm like, it's for, it's for whoever it is I ended up in conversation with. So if I end up in conversation, there's a little, you know, I went to my sister's house right after I had left New Zealand and you know, I had also been directed to give away all of my belongings.

So I no longer had anything. And I, she started asking me about it and then you could just see her face melt. Like, Please stop telling me these things that are indicting me about what it's  I know I need to do too. . And I was. I Sorry. Don't shoot the messenger.  just, yeah. I'm just sharing my journey and it just 

love it. I love, I love the messenger. I mean, the messages gotta come to me. It's like you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself. I like the 

messenger. 

Yay. 

I like the way it's coming. 

I try to be a cheerful one. 

We appreciate 

it. Cause I can hear it from you, like, you know, a white dude who's like, ancestors could give it to a white dude, but they know you give it to a white dude 

it's not coming here

it's gone, it's gone, it's maybe only, but something's gonna land

yeah no, I'm just out here doing my job. 

Mm-hmm. . 

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . 

I also 

really love live time, uh, in that moment that y'all just both acknowledge that, you know, there's like the delivery of something. That's your experience, Sonya, right? Like, you're not actually talking about what anybody else needs to do and like you being really authentic Diedra that like, there's ways it's, it's it's impacting you.

Um, and like the work of Transmuting is to. Just sit and be, right. And so I'm actually gonna be really excited, Diedra, when you take the time and space to process whatever it was, uh, that came up for you. And by, I'm over here too, sitting here going mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.  don't make it a should. She's not saying should.

The word should never came out of her 

mouth. And, 

and what is the invitation with this provocation that you're offering us? Um, all of us who are listening and like, for my own self and for me what I like, I, that's why I asked the question about discipline and, um, integrity, that what's different for you.

Like, I have found at times when I, when I am able to, uh, take the time and the space to really be centered on my own integrity, I, it's counterintuitive. But my experience has been, it's actually much more easeful, um, because it's not rooted in judgment, right? It's actually just a, it's a question like, and I get to start over again in any moment.

Um, you know, so like, yeah, I had a wing, so it's not like you're not, not a vegan, like had a wing, you had a moment and then you had this experience. And so, um, you know, I know you know this from a long time ago, like right, right around the time you were starting the body's non apology. But I had had a similar experience in that grappling of, God, I've been all these diets all these years.

And like, that's all discipline, That's all should, It's all about an external thing. And like, what if I just started every day? I love 

myself. 

How do I wanna treat myself if I love myself in this moment? You know? And what those, like we talked earlier, these incremental steps, it led to a year long experience where there were a ton of different results, but none of them were what I was looking, I wasn't like trying to get the result.

I really was just in a daily practice of if I love myself, how do we treat myself in this moment? So I just really appreciate. A live time experience of Yeah. And that can prickle the shit out of people . 

Absolutely. 

It's, I'm not without prickle here in this moment too. I just wanna say, 

and the invitation is always only curiosity, right?

It's only like, Oh, what does, what does that bring up for me? Right? And, and where does that resistance live? You know, and, and what might that resistance be about? Right. And like, just letting yourself go with the thought process, you know, without the should. Because if you, as soon as you put the should on it, there's resistance, right?

There's like, not somebody's telling me what to do now, you know, there's judgment and shame and all these, but if I can let myself be in the, you know, the lazy river of curiosity. I don't know if you've all spent time at the water parks back in the day, but they always have a lazy river and it's just an inner tube and you just lay in it and whatever they've done to the water just lets you drift around.

Mm-hmm. . And it's great. And it's like, Oh, I can be that way in my curiosity, right? Like, I don't have to do anything other than. See what the, what's the question in front of me now, right? Yeah. And can I just, boy, can I look at it from different angles? Can I see it from different fractals? And then what's the question that wants to come from that, Right?

Mm-hmm. , and can I just let that unfold? Yeah. In each part of that, every aspect of that is a piece of transmutation, right? 

That's right. That's right. 

And the collective impact of it is transformation, right? 

That's right. 

We, we find ourselves being doing existing different. 

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . , 

I appreciate you bringing curiosity up.

It's something I've been really in a lot of reflection around, specifically as a way of transmuting patriarchy and like interrupting the know it all that power, like here's the power over dominant. We've got the answer, right? 

Mm-hmm. . 

And so like, being in curiosity is a great example of transmuting. Um, I love the, I, I grew up in Action Park though, which was hella violent and dangerous water parks.

If y'all haven't seen the documentary on netflix. 

There's a doc!?. Geez. 

Oh, 

it's bad . Go love 

it. You'll love it, you'll love it. Uh, but yes, that's how I grew up in Action Park, which was just wild, like water rides and violent and dangerous and, but the Lazy River  analogy, 

I will, 

uh, I really embrace because that it is just a practice of being and like truly seeing where it's gonna go.

It's like an active listening. We always, you know, really encourage folks to not offer leading questions, right? Like, really, if you're coming from curiosity, there's, it's not a leading question. It's an open ended question. And so, same. In my own practice of curiosity, like I don't have it all figured out and so what if I just be, And so I love that like floating and looking at it from different perspectives and particularly understanding that there are identities that I hold targeted and non-targeted, that influence, there's only so much I can unpack in myself.

And then what does it look like to extend that curiosity that includes many other perspectives and identities in ways that are not causing emotional labor. I just wonder, I always say that's like the disclaimer. Nobody with a targeted identity, uh, owes me anything. And also what does it look like, Right.

To unfold that 

curiosity. 

Totally. Totally. Yeah. And where do we have the relationships that allow that, right? That are like, Oh, we do this for each other again, because we desire to be in a kind of relationship right. Outside of, you know, like I love the idea of we cannot. Blink our eyes and magically make, you know, white supremacy and patriarchy and all of these oppressive systems go away.

But what we can do is practice together what life might look like without them. We can do that in a micro scale. We can do that relationally, right? And, and so you know what I'd love about. What Maureen just shared is like, Right. It's like, no, you're not your responsibility. And no, I don't go to you and ask you to do their labor for me.

And inside of relationship where we wanna practice. What would it look like in a world that wasn't this? How do we support each other inside of that inquiry? You know, how do we, you know, to stay on side, stay inside the lazy River  analogy, you know, you would be with your besties, and then all of y'all would hold each other's rafts, and then all of a sudden you'd be linked together going down the river, Right?

And like that is, that's also the invitation, right? The invitation to practice relationally based on a level of care and commitment and intimacy that is established and agreed upon, right? That we then get to be like, what does relationship look like outside of these structures and systems and, um, the parameters that they have given us, right?

How can we practice, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

You have me, like even in that cur like. In 

that curiosity or like sitting in inquiry, being okay with still some discomfort, You know, like curiosity doesn't necessarily 

equal clarity or like the lack of, you know, 

Or a happy answer. Or a happy answer. 

I mean, the whole time that we've been sitting here, 

y'all, y'all know, like when we started, I said there's a spider that's visiting and I, I'm blamed Sonya.

Um, but uh, but the whole time that we've been sitting here, it has been. Creating this really interesting web coming up and down, up and 

down in 

front of my laptop. And so I'm listening and I'm also like just trying to be in it of like be be curious of like, what is it doing? But whenever it disappears, I'm noticing I got a little, 

you know, I'm feeling like ohh ohh opp curious and 

it feels a little uncomfortable.

Like, I'm not really sure what's happening here. And then, and then she comes back out and then I'm like, Okay, well you're over there. I'm over here. But it makes me think like this idea of curiosity of like same thing of like sometimes being curious, it's not always easeful, it's not always super 

comfortable, right?

No. Um, but like me being in that, I'm in the lazy 

river. Because you, you know, I haven't disappeared and screamed and yelled like I kind of wanted to a couple times. 

Right.

But I've been a lazy river of just letting it happen. Right. And it's just flowing, right. She's doing, I'm doing my thing and here we are.

Yeah. And you can in, you're letting yourself exist in the, in the ebb and flow of that discomfort because it's also not permanent, Right? Like it is, it's evolving, Right. Which is life, right? It's like it might suck at some points. You're going ask some questions, you're going to get some curiosity and the answer's gonna be like, that blows right

But that's not the only reality. Again, it's one of many realities and it's a constant evolution. You know, I just came back a month, uh, yeah, I guess I'm a month out of this retreat now. I went and did plant medicine and I did iowaska at a retreat in Costa Rica. And you know, it was an incredible transformative.

Mind changing, mind blowing experience. Um, but one of the intention questions that they ask that the retreat center asks you to hold the opening retreat, um, the opening intention question is, Show me who I've become. And I was like, Okay, I'm down for that. Like, word I'm gonna do this. So we did this breathwork session and, you know, I was holding that intention and at the end of it, it was like you become at a manifestation of radical love.

And it was I love this answer, I was like and,

following night, I'm in ceremony and uh, I complete the ceremony and you know, it ends in vomiting and feeling like hell and blah, blah. And then I, the same question occurs to me, Show me who I've become. And the answer was, someone who doesn't know when she has enough. And I was like, Mm,

Laughter

I don't like that answer. Right? And both of them were true. Mm-hmm. , both of them were, you know, the revelation of that particular curiosity and inquiry. Yeah. One of them was awesome. One of them really sucked. Right. But all of it was still unveiling something to me that was useful on my journey. Right. And so if I didn't get fixated on, you know, how awful and bad I am because I'm somebody who doesn't know when she has enough.

Right. Or, you know, if all the shame and judgment that wants to come with that, or all of the, like, no, I refuse to believe that. And so I'm just gonna push that back down the, you know, into the shadow so that I don't have to acknowledge it. Then, then I miss the opportunity to be in the practice of transmuting, right?

Mm-hmm. , like that's, that's, and all of it is for my journey. All of it. The discomfort and the beautiful parts. 

That's right. Love 

that. 

That's, that's, I 

know. Thank you. That was like an exceptional dismount. I'm like, , 

we get to be an all

Do the Greek, 

Do the Greeks have judges in the Olympics. I was about to be like, the Greeks give it a 10. 

Of course Greeks in the Olympics, right? 

Cause it started the Olympic, 

Hello, it's theirs. 

Literally. It's theirs. 

But it's so, 

it's so as I was like recalling like clips from all the Olympics, I always hear like, there's judges from all these countries.

I don't hear the judges from Greece. That's not like coming to mind.

It's interesting. 

Interesting awakening around that. Of course, of course. 

It's, they started it, so, yeah. 

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Well, I, 

Always a pleasure, Sonya. Yeah. 

It's an absolute delight. First of all, let me just take a moment and fan girl and gush and just say, Congratulations on just such beautiful, profound, important work.

Congratulations on how you have been doing such beautiful, profound, important work that it feels such, um, honoring of yourselves, honoring of each other, and honoring of the collective. And I'm just really grateful to get to be, you know, like the homie who gets to peek in and support and cheerlead. Cause I'm, I'm just really, really.

Deeply moved, uh, by what it is that you all are putting forth for humanity. It's 

a real, Yeah. 

Thank you. I will take that and ride it all day long. 

Do it. Do it

Thank you. Well, thank you. And 

I just, you know, it was funny. I was, I was, I was nervous before we got on today, which is hilarious. You're my best friend. Yes.

 hilarious. 

So I just wanna fan girl back and be like, it has been so extraordinary to bear witness to this incredible blossoming of you as the most beautiful, compassionate, brilliant, inspiring human being, uh, I could possibly get to know on this journey of life in this iteration.

So thank you for being so vulnerable and transparent and being such a gift of sharing. So much of your journey and your wisdom. I know that so many millions of people have been impacted by who you are and how you move in the world. And, uh, fuck. I'm so grateful for 

you. Thank you. Thank you. 

You, 

Maureen.

Thank you for saying that. I wanna say I, I met you a long time ago via Maureen, but there was always something about you that always felt, and this is like for me, positive. I don't know, it's gonna sound that way, but this 

meant to be. 

Here we go. 

Got it. I receive it. I as such, 

like there was always something about you that was beautifully deep.

Like, like, I just always felt like, like a level of reverence for you. Like, like there's something about you that has always felt very like Sonya's, depth is tangible, it is, um, you know, whatever it was that your ancestors sent you here to 

do, uh, you walked with it. And my, from what I understand, 

you didn't know that then, but I, it's really beautiful to see how much you know it now.

So say like, I've always saw it, I couldn't necessarily name it, It was more like I was a fan before you were famous. Um, and I didn't know why. I didn't necessarily know why. I just, like you 

was like, I'd be around you and I'd feel a little giddy. I'd feel like a little nervous. I'd be like, Oh, it's Sonya, 

you know, like

I, it's weird to say when 

someone's your friend, but I wanna be honest, like, that's kind of like what it, what it was for me. But it's really beautiful now. Like watching you, I can see that you know it more than you did then, and that you're sit, you know it, you're sitting in it, you're acknowledging it. And that is so inspiring as a, from another black woman.

Like, Thank you for doing that cuz it just really helps. 

Thank you, thank you. And thank you for seeing it in me because I'm certain that your reflections of that, whether conscious or subconscious, are part of what has helped me, um, allow, allow me to embody it and to move into it from my truest self. So thank you.

Yay, we're so cute!.

Oh my God, I love it. I love it. 

Well, as we 

wrap today, Sony, do you wanna tell folks how they can follow you? Access, You're up to some amazing things. So what are some, I mean, I'm gonna, we obviously have your bio in the beginning. Uh, what are some other things you'd love people to know about how to access you and follow your journey.

Cool. Um, you are welcome to come and hang out on Patreon. Um, I share lots of what's going on with me. We also do, um, uh, quarterly curriculums around subject matter that's about transmutation many of these systems. And so that's just patreon.com. Sonya, Renee Taylor. Um, you can find me on Instagram occasionally and not occasionally.

I really. You know the Instagram is like a side piece, like sometimes I'm not with, sometimes I'm not. So you can totally do that. That's at Sonya Renee Taylor. You are welcome to find a treasure trove of archive articles at the intersection of radical self love, Body, and justice at the body is non apology.com.

You can also follow us. On Instagram and on Facebook at the Body is Not apology.com. And like I said, we have this course, me and adirenne maree brown right now called the, um, Institute of Radical Permission. We are in the middle of the course right now, but it goes evergreen, meaning that you can get it whenever you want and do it at your own leisure.

Um, and that will be in November. So if you go to, um, institute of Radical permission.org, you can get on the wait list so that you know when that goes live. And there's also a journal that comes with that. The Journal of Radical Permission. Beautiful. Any place books are sold and you can always buy The body's not apology, the workbook and any of the additions and yeah, and whatever else might come along

Who knows? Who knows, knows well maybe 

where you're going next. There's a Lazy River, 

so I'll, You know what? I hope that we have manifested a lazy river in my life. I'm here for it. I'm, I'm gonna manifested Lazy River out in nature. Yes. Yes. At a park. Totally. I'm here for that. I'm here for a river tubing.

I'm visualizing 

river tubing. Beautiful experience. Bring me jungle. See, 

I see you in a innner tube, 

Yep. You got it. You got it. 

I'm here for 

it. Yes. May it be so..